You may also be interested in:

Sales Masterclass

Other Sales Podcasts and transcripts:

Melanie Martin, Erik MacEachern

Sales - IT Recruitment, Gary Palmer Podcast

Sales Recruitment - Discussion between Michael Beale and Gary Palmer, February 2008.

Gary Palmer helps technology companies to grow by recruiting the best IT solutions salespeople. He provides search and selection services for technology companies who want to recruit IT solutions salespeople.

http://www.nlp-expert.co.uk/sales/Gary.mp3

Michael : Good afternoon Gary. First of all I'd really like to thank you for taking part in this podcast, I am really looking forward to what you have to say.

Gary : Thanks very much for the opportunity. I run a company called Sixth Sense Recruitment and we specialising in finding people for technology companies,

Michael : And what experience do you have that makes you credible as a sales recruiter?

Gary : Well I guess it's the classic 'Poacher turned gamekeeper' as in, I over twenty years sold IT systems of varying sizes and descriptions - And if you like, I'm not placing people in jobs to do just that, So I would like to think that the credibility of being in that world and doing that type of job will give me more of an insight when it comes to selecting people on a clients behalf.

And the final thing I would say on that - that in a lot of cases I could do the jobs that I'm trying to fill.

Michael : Can you give us an idea of some of the companies and some of the contexts in which you've recruited people?

Gary : It really stretches from one extreme to the other, so on the upper end in terms of size, people like Xansa and Computer Associates - large global organisations, where it's all about volume and process and lots of HR involvement and so on.

And really as a recruiter you're a piece of a much larger jigsaw - and the clients got a pretty good idea of what they need and how we're going to go about managing the various candidates through the process - until they make an appointment.

At the other end I work with privately owned software companies where they making their first sales hire through A-listed companies where they're in that kind of growth spurt, and trying to deliver the numbers they're looking for in order to expand the business and so on,

And really the difference between these small to medium size companies and the corporates are that they often don't have any HR function, and if they do it's minimal. So there's a lot more dependency on the sales director or the MD, to do the recruitment as well as their day job. And one of the challenges that that brings is it's not always a fully formed view as to what they need. They just need some more profit, and some more sales, where they've got to get someone in, when they're not always in possession of what that means - so there's a valuable contribution to be made there, a bit of consulting and helping them to define what they need.

Michael :That leads nicely onto the next question. What do you think as a sales recruiter, do you add to your clients?

Gary : Well I think it's what I would describe as the stretching of the brief -  So the brief that they may start off with, for example is 'we need someone to sell application software into financial services sector, ' - so rather than just taking that as red I'll say, 'when you say financial service sector do you mean UK, or do you mean Europe?' Do you mean investment banking, do you mean retail banking? Do you mean insurance? Do you mean the Lloyds market? Do you mean the general market?'

Just trying through a course of  conversation and discussion to further refine the requirement and get them to really think and be clear about what they need. And this would go into all sorts of areas, for example, what their average transaction value is, and what their average sale cycle length is. All these things will dictate what kind of behaviours they will need from their salesperson.

From the outside it probably looks like a salesperson is a salesperson and that if they could sell, they could transform the markets fairly easily but that has proved to not be the case. So the devils in the detail is what I'm trying to say.

Michael : A question about the recruitment process - what as far as you're concerned, are the main elements in the successful recruitment process from your initial discussion with the client, to the right person successfully on board and producing results?

Gary : I think that there are two main aspects to that. The first one is that there's clarity about the brief and about the requirement and what's needed. And as I've touched on, to drill down into the main areas and make sure that everybody's clear about that.

And secondly, you can have clarity, but if it's not very realistic, it's not very helpful - so if they're expecting to get a list of attributes as long as your arm, for a budget that's ten K less than the market pays, then it's going to be a long fruitless search.
So it's about clarity, and it's about reality I suppose as well.

Those two things mean that that projects can be taken on with a degree of confidence that you can deliver.

Michael :So that kicks the process of - what are then some things that you do to get the right person?

Gary : So depending on my example earlier, of the corporate on one extreme and the small start-up at the other, it depends how mainstream the job is. If the clients of a larger organisation, they're going to be in a team of about twenty, selling the same products into either geography or a vertical sector - then actually there's probably quite a few people out there that could do that job if the timing and the opportunity was right.

If on the other hand you're looking for someone to sell an application to investment banks and you're looking for three years of experience with that and it happens to be in Germany, then you'll understand that's going to be a bit more difficult. So depending on how mainstream the role is or not will effect your search strategy.

So if it was, for want of a better word, a volume based approach, then you would use a combination of advertising and what I would describe as 'push methods', so you would push the information out there that you were looking for someone. Where as if it were more of a niche role in terms of skills or seniority or both, then you'd probably use more of a pull model where you'd be using your networks, your contacts, your referrals, and head-hunting, to actually go out and select that person.

So with the latter example you'd work much more closely with the client to understand who their competitors are, would they consider someone half a step removed from their direct sector, but had industry sector knowledge.

There's a hundred and one different ways to slice and dice it. But the devil's in the detail - the devil is always in the detail.

Michael : So you've sorted out the right spec for the person, you've gone out and found them - is there anything important about how you get the guy to settle in, or is it just a question of putting them in the company and getting them to work?

Gary : I guess the piece I've missed out is, once I've put the work in and found the candidate, it's up to me to do the pre-screening and, if you like, the qualification of the fit.

So what's that candidates aspirations? What are they looking for in their next role and all of those sorts of things?

Once we get to the point where me and the candidate agree that its a good fit, then we would put the details forward to the client, discuss with the client - and I would expect, well, about eighty to ninety per cent of the Cv's that I've put forward would lead to interview.

I'm not playing in any sense of the word, a numbers game. It's impossible to get it right one-hundred per cent of the time, partly because there's this shifting sand as far as the requirements are concerned, and you're dealing with people. But eighty to ninety per cent is the run rate of CV to interview.

Then when they're interviewed, clients typically want to see three people for a position. So presuming that they're just working with me, they'll put forward three, they'll shortlist two. They'll offer one, and that person will start. And I would - to answer your question about the settling in period - I would work closely in the period leading up to - and I would keep in contact periodically for the settling in period - baring in mind that these hires I'm working with are typically two to five interviews with various managers, and sometimes a battery of tests.

So by the time the hire actually takes place both sides have generally spend a lot of man hours pouring over it. And two and a half years in I haven't had anyone on the client or candidate side of it that's felt that they've made the wrong move.

Michael : Looking at your search process for one of your typical recruitment projects - without giving anything confidential away - when do you look for people and where do you look for people?

Gary : I think that it's fair to say that the telephone work with candidates tends to take place out of hours. So it's either early or late - the actual searching about target candidates could be anytime because so much of it is done through the web or through my network of referrals - that's another advantage having twenty odd years in the business, in the club, if you like - that I can short circuit things to get information or gossip, or whatever - or a steer towards someone.

But there is a fair amount of burning the midnight oil. It's a balance between high-activity and a bit of structure, and logic. So it's no good being a headless chicken, but on the same token, you can't do it all on logic. You've got to put some hours in as well!

Michael : now in being a good recruiter, what are some of the behavioural things that you're good at, and you need to do to be a good recruiter?

Gary : I don't know if I'm good at them, but what you need to do is you need to put yourself in with the client or the candidates position, and just consider what they may be thinking or what they may be looking for rather than trying to push your own agenda towards them - so in other words its very consultative.

Lots of good questioning, lots of listening - and understanding that its a numbers business and you can't win all of the time.

I try and do is to add some value to each type of engagement, so if a candidate conversation is not going anywhere, then it might be that I can refer him to somebody else, it might be that we stay in touch - but I try to progress it in some way, which may not be directly business for me, but in terms of helping that individual along - and similarly, in terms of candidates you want internal sales people, and that's not really what I do, but I know other people that do that so I would refer them on.

Michael : What skills do you have that enable you to do this?

Gary : Questioning, the consultative kind of approach. I think more behaviours than skills would be things - you've got to be quite creative, you've got to think your way around a lot of the challenges that you have - if you're doing headhunting and you're trying to get some bodies mobile telephone number so that you can speak to them - you may have to be creative to do that.

You've got to be resilient - because the interesting thing about recruitment, whether its client or candidate, when they need you, they need you - but as soon as that need is fulfilled the shutters come down again. So you've got to be quite clinical, quite clear thinking and objective about it all. It's a very interesting and lucrative business when it works, but you don't get anything for finishing second. So you've got to be focused, you've got to be clear about what you're trying to do.

Michael :You've said that you've been doing this for a number of years- what's changed about how you operate over that period of time? What have you learned to do differently now compared to what you did when you started?

Gary : Well I think that I'm much more aware that I'm client driven. I'm finding people for jobs, not jobs for people. There will be odd occasions for particularly exceptional candidates where I will do things slightly differently - but that's the exception.

My business is driven by the clients that I'm working with at that time, and the time's assignments. So that's a big change, where as before I was semi-candidate led, if you will - that was an error.

I think this other thing is just this question of focus - it's about 'where are we in the process?' 'Have we finished the sourcing?' 'have we qualified any candidates?' 'Have we put any CV's forward?' 'Have we arranged interviews?' 'Is the client moving through the interview process? That seems to be taking a long time.' Attention to detail all of the way through, because before you know it you've lost a fortnight - and then perhaps a headcount comes in that not even the client was expecting.

So time is of the essence in this business, that's another one.

And the third one is probably just a persistence thing. It is a numbers business and no matter how much quality you put in there you've still got to do the activity, and you've still got to speak to lots of people and have lots a of possibilities on the table - because in this sector, things fall over- head counts, profit warnings - whatever their reasons may be.

Michael : Working on the assumption that you're doing this really well - what do you believe about yourself?

Gary : I believe that what goes around comes around. I believe that if you do the right things then the right things will happen to you. I believe in being positive and optimistic, I believe in abundance, I believe there's plenty for everyone. I believe in having some fun, that it's not life or death.

Michael : What do you believe about your clients?

Gary : Well again, if I take them into sectors - the corporates I believe - I'm hesitating to find the right phrase - I think anyone who's heading for a corporate would understand that it's a pretty hard-nosed environment and if you get an opportunity and you deliver, than you might as well stay in there to get another opportunity.

My medium to long-term plan is to work with smaller, high-growth organisations where they don't have the same process based approach, the same hr functions, so they value more the input of a specialist recruiter, in terms of helping them shape the people that they need, teams they need to build and that sort of thing.

So to answer your question, I think that the small to medium sized clients need someone's input to do those sorts of things. I think that at the corporate end, they just need resource, they just need someone to work their own process on their behalf. And if it isn't me it'll be someone else.

Michael : Do you have a personal mission when you're doing this?

Gary : Only to do the right thing. Quite genuinely I'm not in the business of trying to talk someone into a job that isn't right for them, or to talk a client into taking someone that isn't right for them.

Because I don't think that would fit in with my feeling of 'what goes around comes around'. So it's to do the right thing in the right way, and to have some fun, and really it's as straight forward as that.

I think that recruitment has not got a very good name because it's so transactional and it's attracted some interesting characters. So just by doing the simple things well on a consistent basis seems to be building me a bit of a brand and a bit of a reputation, and to just continue doing that at a faster rate is my next ambition.

Michael : Rather a strange question, so let your creativity rise - If you had to describe recruitment activity as a story with fairy tale characters, or cartoons or something - how would you describe the relationship between you and your clients, and/or you and your people that you place in jobs.

Gary : Well I guess the closest would be Cinderella and the glass slipper. And again we come back to talk about the smaller, high-growth companies, where they have their own unique culture and all of those things, I do think that often they are looking for something very, very specific, and it's up to me to go and find that for them even though on day one they might not be absolutely clear as to what that looks like.

So finding the shoe that fits  - the slipper  - that would probably be the best that I could come up with!

Michael : That's good. OK, before I ask if there's anything that you'd like to plug and your contact details, is there anything else that you'd like to emphasis, or to bring in to finish this thing about what recruitment is and how you became good at recruitment?

Gary : In my experience, the defining factor between the success and failure of a project is the amount of focus and energy the client is willing to put, in terms of discussing and agreeing the brief. So in other words, half an hour spent at that stage, in conversation can save everyone much, much more time further down the stream, if we were to search for something that was not really required. So that would really be the message - to invest the time. Find someone that they feel comfortable with in terms of partnering, and invest the time. Instead of going the other route which is what a lot of companies do and have multiple recruiters, and they don't tell anyone anything apart from the job description, and get surprised when it doesn't work out.

Michael : Ok, to finish off would you like to say anything that you'd like to say about plugging what you do and also give your contact details, so that anyone that wants to contact you can.

Gary : Just to say that my specialism is in finding sales professionals for companies with particular leanings towards high-growth, small to medium sized companies. Although if there are any corporates, I can work with them as well - but that's mainly the message.

And my contact details - my email address is gary@6sr.co.uk and the telephone number as I'm constantly on the move, the best one is 07876 540315, and I should probably say that the website is www.6sr.co.uk

Michael : Thank you very much indeed.



 

Copyright 2008 PPI Business NLP Ltd